George R.R. Martin Has Written 1,100 Pages of The Winds of Winter, the Same Number as Last Year

[u/TalnOnBraize]

https://www.ign.com/articles/george-rr-martin-has-written-1100-pages-of-the-winds-of-winter-the-same-number-as-last-year

[u/DevilMasterKING]

sooo does this mean over 2000 page book or him not adding any new pages.

[u/adsfew → u/DevilMasterKING]

"I have like 1,100 pages written but I still have hundreds more pages to go. It's a big mother of a book for whatever reason. Maybe I should've started writing smaller books when I began this but it's tough. That's the main thing that dominates most of my working life."

Martin said on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert in December 2022 he had "like 1,100, 1,200 pages" done, with 400 or 500 to go before The Winds of Winter was complete. Almost a year on, the author seemingly still has the same amount of work to be done.

Emphasis mine, so I'm assuming the latter

[u/Aggressive_Chicken63 → u/adsfew]

I wonder if he has written himself into a corner.

[u/Adequate_Images → u/Aggressive_Chicken63]

He did that 2 books ago

[u/Darehead → u/Adequate_Images]

He should really just retcon the time jump and write the story he wanted to. Even if it means rewriting part of the earlier books.

I don't think anyone in the community would give a shit if it meant seeing a conclusion to the series that's satisfying.

[u/BroadwayBully → u/Darehead]

He is so over writing this saga lol he’d not finish at all before going back and revising imo.

[u/rjrgjj → u/[deleted]]

We all know how it ends already. The other stuff is still straight from him, and there’s no financial imperative. He can write what he wants and he seems more interested in world building than anything else. He’s frequently said that what interests him is the nitpicking details.

I suspect he kind of lost his passion for this when he realized the show was going to get there first. But that’s his own fault.

[u/Drtsauce → u/rjrgjj]

I wonder if he had a bigger say in Seasons 7&8 than was let on… he saw the fans reaction to the show and now is trying to rewrite his own ending.

[u/rjrgjj → u/Drtsauce]

Supposedly he begged them to agree to more seasons so they could use more material from the books and they declined. I think at that point he basically had little say in what was going on so long as they stayed relatively close to whatever he’d provided them at a certain point.

[u/Tall_olive → u/Drtsauce]

Doubtful considering the last book introduced pretty major characters into play that never even existed in the show.

[u/i_tyrant → u/[deleted]]

I really wonder what his editor and publisher plan to do. Like, he's one of the few authors in the world that might be "too big to fail". What are they gonna do, force him to finish it? Pull out the cancellation clause in his contract and risk destroying what could be a massive moneymaker if he ever does?

[u/DungeonsAndDradis → u/i_tyrant]

We all know he'll pass on in the next few years, without having finished the series, and the publisher will bring in Brandon Sanderson to finish it. (/s)

[u/willclerkforfood → u/DungeonsAndDradis]

“Is Frank Herbert’s kid still alive? Maybe they can make one of the Targaryens become a snow worm or some shit?”

[u/i_tyrant → u/DungeonsAndDradis]

lol, would not be surprised if that's what his publisher is actually thinking at this point. (Not Sanderson but "oh well if he keels over before finishing it we'll get someone else to or release a collection of his notes, either way it'll still be worth the wait.")

[u/flashmedallion → u/[deleted]]

Having seen and worked with a lot of creators who have grappled with abandonment of projects, and done so myself, my armchair diagnosis is that he's actually solved the puzzle for himself and now it's just "boring" work left to finish everything and flesh it all out and he's lost the motivation that spurred him on in the first place.

[u/TheGhostofWoodyAllen → u/Darehead]

Or just do the time jump now. Explain how Jon came back, how Dany made it across the sea, etc. in the way he typically refers to previous events, via conversations, thoughts, etc. all while moving the story forward to get to where he wants to go.

[u/BowwwwBallll → u/TheGhostofWoodyAllen]

“Somehow, Jon returned!!

[u/Oxygenius_ → u/BowwwwBallll]

I mean they brought him back from the dead, anything is possible tbh

[u/Minerva_Moon → u/Oxygenius_]

Better idea. Just bring him back but don't address it. Ever. It will create endless conversations of if he's really back or is an ice zombie, is someone else in disguise, a ghost for bran to talk to, or even a god. Never have a chapter from his PoV again.

[u/rjrgjj → u/BowwwwBallll]

I genuinely think that when he finished Book 5, he was thinking to keep Jon’s corpse in the ice dungeons and do a time jump and then bring him back to life while his spirit runs around in Ghost, and then he realized after it was too late how ridiculous that would be.

There are a number of hints to this idea in the narrative, which is constantly harping about ice preserving shit and wargs entering animal bodies after dying.

And now he’s just stuck because he pulled the trigger on this plot point and has no idea how to get around it (and a bunch of others).

[u/ikeif → u/Darehead]

Didn’t Stephen King do that? Or maybe Brandon Sanderson? Like they realized they broke timelines or something, or incorrect references, so they rewrote the broken bits.

I don’t think that makes anyone a bad writer - when shit gets that big and complicated, unless you have a team checking you, it’d be easy to mess up.

[u/Tifoso89 → u/Darehead]

What's the time jump?

[u/crapmonkey86 → u/Tifoso89]

Between A Storm of Swords and the next book (which I assume is what Winds Of Winter is supposed to be) there was supposed to be a time jump where a bunch of people age up and end up in their near final locations for the next part of the story. He instead wanted to flesh out how those characters get to where they're supposed to end up, this ended up in the infamous Mereneese Knot which cause the first hug delay in the series which was between Swords and Feast. He didn't know how to justify how these characters get to that point and had to convincingly write up how they do so in the context of the story.

[u/Tianoccio → u/crapmonkey86]

For some reason, the Dothraki appear.

[u/Cualkiera67 → u/crapmonkey86]

I'm pretty sure all that traveling was filler because he didn't know what to actually do once they arrived.

Both books have many chapters leading to a specific encounter (Jaime, Brienne, and Lady S) from both perspectives, yet none shows the actual encounter. To me that's a dead giveaway that he doesn't know what to do in the encounter itself

[u/Darehead → u/Tifoso89]

There was originally going to be a 5 year time jump after A Storm of Swords and events were going to be explained via flashbacks. GRRM thought it might be too much retroactive storytelling and scrapped the idea.

It would have made the characters older and explained the behavior of some of them. Battles that would have been fought by young adults were instead being fought by teens. Jon Snow and Dany are 15-16 as of Dance. Sansa is 13. Arya is 11.

The fan theory has become that he wrote himself into a corner by not giving himself enough time to explain certain events or character behavior. It's much easier later on to go "by the way, ____ did that in the 5 year gap" but that option is gone now.

[u/Gaemon_Palehair → u/Darehead]

So your solution to "this guy can't finish a book quickly enough" is to have him throw out and redo the last two books that took him like ten years to write, then start this one over?

Bold plan!

[u/PMMeYourClavicles → u/Adequate_Images]

Yea, the die was cast when he didn't go through with the 5 year time jump. He solved one problem by trying to write through it, but he just created ten new ones.

[u/TheDeadlyCat → u/Aggressive_Chicken63]

That’s sarcasm right? I mean by this point it is obvious, isn’t it?

It would not surprise me if he had scenes planned for characters later in the story that are constantly not ending up living that long no matter how often he juggles the plotlines around.

[u/Zolomun → u/TheDeadlyCat]

That’s something that would be really fun to dramatize, an author watching in abject horror as the only viable next step becomes the death of a character that’s vital to the amazing climax planned for 600 pages later.

[u/Scapp → u/Zolomun]

Then be a DM for DnD :D

[u/Zolomun → u/Scapp]

Lol! “A-Are you absolutely certain you want to swing your axe at the talking rabbit that’s invited you home for supper?”

[u/Variant_007 → u/Zolomun]

"The rabbit, uh. The rabbit uhhhh. The axe swing bounces off the rabbit's platemail. Yes, the rabbit was wearing platemail. The top hat was more surprising so I described that first but there's definitely platemail too.

Yeah, this rabbit looks like it's completely impervious to axe swings. You've got no choice but to go to supper. It's the only way."

[u/sunlitstranger → u/Variant_007]

You’ve rolled a 20…and you really want to kill the rabbit... Well…*ahem… that is good. That is very good for you. Well…let’s see here…well…

[u/terminalzero → u/sunlitstranger]

"your axe blow strikes the rabbit square on, splitting the rabbit's plate. with their last breath, the rabbit squeeks out "I just wanted you to try my tea..."

you hear rumbling, like a landslide or an apocalyptic thunderstorm - eventually, you see them.

rabbits. hundreds of them. thousands of them. they march towards you in double time, neat rows of pikes and banners stretching from horizon to horizon. every tiny fuzzy nose twitches with hate.

you broke the guestlaw. you killed their prince. you trod on a vole they were quite fond of. soon nothing will be left of you but the screams and the blood.

total party wipe, everybody pull out their next character sheets, and let's give a big hand for dave the rabbit-slayer.

[u/Leaving_The_Oilfield → u/Scapp]

Man. I was always interested in DnD but I’ve never been in a friend group that would even consider playing something that “nerdy”. I couldn’t even get them to play risk because it took too long and was for nerds.

But after getting Baldurs Gate 3 I’ve realized I’d be a nightmare to play with. I absolutely love the game, but I still can’t fucking figure out how to best equip or utilize the companions and I’ve spent untold hours googling and YouTubing it. Especially Shadowheart. Most articles and videos somewhat agree on how to use the rest, but none agree on how to use her. They just all agree you should use her lol.

[u/hellzofwarz → u/Leaving_The_Oilfield]

Maybe let go of trying to best equip or utilize things. Just roll with what looks cool and makes sense to you. BG3 has the advantage that its designed to be completed in basically any way you choose. There is no 'best' of anything because that is kinda subjective for this type of game. Basically what i'm saying is, you might have a smoother experience if you stop trying to 'metagame' or 'optimize' everything.

Don't get me wrong, looking up a 'broken' build or combo is fun but don't be a slave to it.

[u/CaveRanger → u/Zolomun]

George R.R. Martin finds himself in the plot of Re:Creators

[u/DrWilhelm → u/TheDeadlyCat]

I've long suspected the main problem is that he still wants to finish the story with book 7, partly for thematic reasons, partly because I suspect he's bored/frustrated with the story, but theres no way he can satisfactorily tie up all those loose plot threads in only two books. He'd need at least three imo, and even that would be a massive challenge.

[u/CrossXFir3 → u/DrWilhelm]

Agreed. I don't even think the 7 books is all about thematic stuff. Maybe a touch. But I think he planned on 3, it became 5, then 7 and now he's realizing it's probably closer to 9 and he's over it.

[u/TheDeadlyCat → u/CrossXFir3]

If that is it he should think about a ghost writer and move on

[u/DerekB52 → u/TheDeadlyCat]

He doesn't even need a ghostwriter. He could say, I've written some outlines, and I'm handing this off to X author and letting them finish it for me. There's probably a contingent of the fan base who would be more excited by someone writing the next books than Martin doing it himself.

[u/TheDeadlyCat → u/DerekB52]

I think the outline keeps changing too often for that. Handing off an outline means committing and I think that’s part of the problem.

[u/CptCroissant → u/DerekB52]

How tf can anyone get excited about GRRM doing it when he's basically basically negative progress

[u/cchaudio → u/Aggressive_Chicken63]

I wonder if the ending we saw in the show is the ending he had outlined. He saw everyone hated it so he scraps his outline and goes back to the drawing board and realizes there's no way to wrap things up in a sensical and satisfying way.

[u/Firm_Squish1 → u/cchaudio]

Better way to describe it is that you are in the middle of a joke that depends heavily on the delivery. Halfway through a friend just kind blurts out a butchered version of the joke as you had told them a week prior. As everyone looks on in confusion and disgust, your friend turns to you and says “alright you can finish the joke now.”

[u/barley_wine → u/Firm_Squish1]

Yep, while I don't love the ending, it was a good enough conclusion and wasn't what ruined the show. What I can't stand is how quickly it got there. From a show that previously moved slowly from event to event, it felt like the last couple of seasons just jumped rapidly from plot point to plot point, stuff that might have taken a season before to flesh out was over with in an episode.

[u/Firm_Squish1 → u/barley_wine]

Yep the biggest difference is that earlier the characters acted in ways that were consistent with their characters. By the end they were just doing things to move the plot forward.

[u/QuerulousPanda → u/Firm_Squish1]

the utter character assassination of jamie was insane too. like, he had gone through so much stuff and had developed so far as a character, the fact that they had him throw it all away and die needlessly after burning all the bridges was just some cringey edgelord shit, like, "well we can't have anyone actually grow as a character, so fuck it".

[u/Firm_Squish1 → u/QuerulousPanda]

He really got the short end of it in season 4 (the last mostly good season) when they hired a director who accidentally made his encounter with Cersei seem very non-consensual and then they had him free Tyrion and say “goodbye brother I have never done anything to break our trust” and Tyrion said “sounds great James I’m certain my motivations and writing going forward will make sense and not seem like a parody of what it was previously”

[u/IR8Things → u/barley_wine]

That's because the show went from having fully written and fleshed out books to adapt to adapting his outline of events. While they could have waited or tried to draw it out themselves, the last few seasons is as much GRRM's fault as Dan and Dave's fault. From pitch to out of material, he had nearly 10 years to finish his story and didn't do a single book of it.

[u/Billy1121 → u/cchaudio]

He gave them the outline for sure.

[u/EarthrealmsChampion → u/Billy1121]

Well iirc he gave them an outline to finish in 10 full seasons (total) and D&D decided 7.5 seasons would be enough.

[u/Lemp_Triscuit11 → u/EarthrealmsChampion]

Yeah there are a lot of shit parts of the S8 finale that could have reasonably worked (or at least been better) had they had a little more planning and lead up to them

[u/zappy487 → u/Lemp_Triscuit11]

I'll keep saying it. I was absolutely fine with every single story point, but almost none of it was earned, and THAT'S why I can't even do a re-watch of the series.

[u/JunglePygmy → u/zappy487]

I can’t even start watching it again. If I get to the scene with the awesome symbol in the snow drawn in body parts that meant absolutely nothing I’m going to fucking lose it. That paired with the knowledge that the big bad winter ice king guy dies with a quick little stabby-stabby is going to put me in therapy…

[u/throwawayinthe818 → u/JunglePygmy]

And all that Dothraki stuff, only to have them charge off into the murk and just…disappear.

[u/The_39th_Step → u/zappy487]

Agreed. It was rushed. I wasn’t happy with how many people survived the final battle but the story itself didn’t bother me so much

[u/Scudamore → u/cchaudio]

I think he's gotten way too used to and fond of public approval. When he started the series, he was a relative unknown, so it didn't matter so much if he took riskier writing choices or 'subverted expectations.' He didn't have an audience to lose outside of hardcore sci fi and fantasy fans. But now he's got a level of public popularity that still lets him do all sorts of projects, get brought into all kinds of conventions, as a celebrity.

Yeah, people are mad about the delay. But there's nowhere near the level of vitriol directed towards D&D post-show ending. Sure, people can say they'd like that ending more if he wrote it well. But I think the level of backlash was so large, he assumes some of it was genuinely to the ending itself (Jon has no role and disappears, Bran is on the throne, Dany loses her mind) and not just to how it was executed. Better to keep kicking the football down the road than finish and experience the drop himself.

[u/justprettymuchdone → u/cchaudio]

That's my theory. And it is still an ending he could salvage, maybe, because the main problem with Dany's ending, Bran's, etc was that there was basically no build up for any of those things and the logic for them didn't make any sense in the context of what we had been given in the show.

But yeah, my theory has been that the ending the show runners were given is the one he did plan and now he's not sure how to write his way out having seen how poorly everyone reacted, and rightfully so.. that ending absolutely 100% completely sucked.

But the showrunners were a big part of the reason it sucked and he doesn't have to go down the same path they did.

[u/caffeine-junkie → u/justprettymuchdone]

But yeah, my theory has been that the ending the show runners were given is the one he did plan and now he's not sure how to write his way out having seen how poorly everyone reacted, and rightfully so.. that ending absolutely 100% completely sucked.

Ending itself was fine as stories go, it was how they got there that was the issue. It wasn't just rushed, it was missing entire chunks of character development which caused them to appear to do complete 180's from where they were just an episode or two earlier. To make it make sense (motivation wise) and satisfying, all you need to do is add those missing chunks in.

[u/DrWilhelm → u/justprettymuchdone]

I mean he's been struggling to finish Winds, and saying it would be out soon, since long before the show ended. It might be one reason for the delay, but it can't be the main reason.

[u/pWasHere → u/justprettymuchdone]

There are more characters in the books that I think will make Dany’s downfall more believable and quite fascinating I think, but ultimately Bran isn’t that beloved of a character so I think it all coming down to him on top will be a hard sell.

[u/FastenedCarrot → u/pWasHere]

Bran ending up king but it's actually a sinister ending because it was all a scheme by the Three Eyed Raven could work though.

[u/Tifoso89 → u/FastenedCarrot]

Especially if he turns out to be the one who drove King Aerys crazy because he kept going back in time and whispering to him

[u/reebee7 → u/cchaudio]

I hope not.

The problem with the show was not that the general idea was bad, it's that it was horribly executed, mostly because it was horribly rushed.

[u/ScionMattly → u/reebee7]

Well if one thing can be said its that Martin is certainly not rushing the end of his books.

[u/chadthundertalk → u/Aggressive_Chicken63]

I always assumed that was his issue

[u/Awkward_Pangolin3254 → u/Aggressive_Chicken63]

He got pissy that everybody hated his ending (if you think D&D changed that, you're crazy) and he shelved the whole thing. I guarantee it.

[u/DevilMasterKING → u/adsfew]

Im gonna assume we will get flying cars sooner then winds of winter

[u/Astral_Taurus → u/DevilMasterKING]

I mean, we got a new Beatles single sooner then winds of winter, so...

[u/LupusDeusMagnus → u/DevilMasterKING]

Nah, those are manuscript pages. For what matters, ADWD had 1510 manuscript pages, which were edited into 1100 pages I think.

Also, technically he could be just rewriting the same chapter over and over and over again and still get thousands of pages that would translate into just 30 pages of printed book.

[u/littlehobbiton → u/LupusDeusMagnus]

Also, technically he could be just rewriting the same chapter over and over and over again and still get thousands of pages that would translate into just 30 pages of printed book.

No joke but that is sort of what's been happening for years. He takes long breaks of not writing TWoW, then when he comes back to it he re-reads his old stuff to remember what's going on, decides he can improve it so decides to re-write it. Rinse and repeat. The poor bastard is trapped in an infinite re-write loop, a Meereenese Knot of his own making.

[u/N8ThaGr8 → u/DevilMasterKING]

Not 1,100 more pages since last year. They're saying he's at the same total of 1,100 that he was last year.

[u/PM_Me_Nudes_or_Puns → u/DevilMasterKING]

If he gave his notes and a ball of Colombian bambam to Stephen King this shit would be done in a week.

[u/talescaper]

The monkeys are going to finish Hamlet quicker than George RR Martin his book

[u/jmarsh642 → u/talescaper]

It was the best of times it was the blurst of times?!

[u/ihlaking → u/jmarsh642]

You stupid monkeys!

[u/ParmesanB → u/jmarsh642]

Shit that one was close!

[u/ErikDebogande → u/talescaper]

Something is rotten in the state of...Fendmark?! You stupid monkey!!!

[u/lifeonbroadway]

The funniest thing to me is that this isn’t even supposed to be the last book of the series. If by some miracle he lives long enough to finish this one, there is still zero chance he finishes the series.

[u/Quiddity131 → u/lifeonbroadway]

While he claims he only needs one more after this one I think he'd need 2 books minimum to complete it.

Meaning it will never actually be completed.

[u/WorldBuildingGuy → u/Quiddity131]

Looking at the fact that Dany has to defeat the slavers, regroup with her people, meet with Tyrion and then return to Westeros (including probably a stop off in Pentos to wrap up the Illyrio situation) and THEN deal with Faegon and the other pretenders and all of that being just one character's story I don't see how two books can cover what remains of the story left satisfactorily.

[u/VitaminTea → u/WorldBuildingGuy]

In George's original plan for the story, the series with a trilogy: (1) the War of the Five Kings, (2) Dany's invasion of Westeros, and (3) the Long Night.

Obviously he has remixed those threads, but yeah, he isn't even on part 2 yet.

[u/ADwightInALocker → u/VitaminTea]

I think this is actually the issue. He is realizing he actually has like 7 books to go with everything he has planned and instead of getting it to work or hiring alt writers to help him, hes just living in denial and ignorance.

[u/CaesarFucksGoats → u/ADwightInALocker]

Originally after Storm of Swords he was going to do a 5 year time jump, but then decided to cover that intermediary period directly instead.

This I think was his major fuck up. He could have kicked off the 4th book with things really moving, and with added bonus of the younger kids being more believable in age for what they're going to be doing. (Book Jon and Dany are still like 13/14 years old, Arya is like 8.)

Not only was there not enough interesting stuff happening in this 5 years to justify 2 books, but he added even more new POV character. There's just no plausible way to conclude this story in 2 books now. Even if he doesn't follow the show precisely, we know Dany has to invade Westeros, Jon has to return, the Bolton and Stannis situation has to resolve, there is an entire other supposed Targaryen who has a major plot line, Euron is up to some crazy shit, and the white walkers have to do...something. In 2 books? It's not possible.

[u/transemacabre → u/CaesarFucksGoats]

I think there were several fuckups. The first was when he was plotting/writing the first book. He should have extended the timeline by 3-4 years to age up the characters so he wouldn't be stuck writing little kids for books on end. Dany and Jon would have started out at 16 and not 13.

Then he planned a timeskip to deal with the problem caused by the first fuckup, only to scrap that idea and start over again.

The third fuckup was he became reluctant to actually kill anyone off. He keeps adding viewpoint characters and now the cast is overloaded.

All of this is on top of the numerous fuckups the TV show team made.

[u/Gaemon_Palehair → u/VitaminTea]

I still think it's really funny he used the tile A Dance With Dragons but that book didn't even get to Dany and "Aegon" meeting let alone fighting.

[u/VitaminTea → u/Gaemon_Palehair]

But it did have Jon and Dany POVs!

[u/Alandales → u/WorldBuildingGuy]

A hurricane. Hear me out….a hurricane murders off some, moves some people around, and like a tornado in the wizard of oz drops everyone together for the final show down.

Mad props if GRRM adds sharks into the tornados

[u/ceene → u/Alandales]

That's more or less Stephen King's The Stand ending

[u/[deleted] → u/ceene]

That book doesn’t have an ending - it has a beginning and then a middle part which stretches until the end of time and space.

[u/jimbsmithjr → u/ceene]

I absolutely love King but it sort of sums him up. Martin is taking forever because he doesn't know how to finish, King just goes "I've got more books to write, this will do"

[u/worthless_ape → u/Alandales]

He could accomplish the same thing by just having the White Walkers be overwhelmingly powerful. The invasion comes out of nowhere, King's Landing itself is sacked. Every major plotline is disrupted, killing off half the characters so there are less threads to tie up.

[u/Alandales → u/worthless_ape]

Now a tornado of White Walkers does seem to apply slightly more than sharks…

[u/We_The_Raptors → u/Quiddity131]

This is a big part of the problem imo. Dance was already split so that the original intended ending points are supposed to happen at the start of Winds.

The world building got out of control and now there's to much story left for only 2 books.

[u/nedlum → u/We_The_Raptors]

And Dance itself only exists because Feast for Crows was too long.

[u/VitaminTea → u/nedlum]

Dance is the second half of Feast, and even the climactic battles in Dance were pushed to Winds.

It's not as simple as this, because Dance grew and changed when he decided to split the POVs, but you could argue that George still hasn't actually finished the sequel to A Storm of Swords, which published in 2000.

[u/taco_tuesdays → u/VitaminTea]

Holy shit. That’s why SoS is so well paced but all the books after feel so meandering.

[u/capnpetch → u/VitaminTea]

Yeah. He was supposed to have a multi year time jump and realized that he couldn’t keep referring back in exposition to important things like why the church suddenly had an army and how shit went down in Kings Landing.

[u/Substantial_Army_639 → u/capnpetch]

What kills me is that honestly he could have done exactly that. Almost any chapter in the first two books were people walking down a road or sitting in a Grand hall or tavern reminiscing on the events in Robert's Rebellion and all the small events that happened in between Robert's Rebellion and current events.

[u/Robserling → u/Substantial_Army_639]

Can even cover for your plot holes make it more interesting thematically by having two different chapters explaining the story with significant differences as told by different sides so it’s ambiguous what exactly happened. Would fit well in to the whole “my villain is the hero of my enemies” theme ASOIAF did a lot of.

[u/Substantial_Army_639 → u/Robserling]

Damn another good point and to be fair he's even done that a bit with a few fake outs in later books. No idea how to do spoiler tags so I won't elaborate.

[u/JackStephanovich → u/Quiddity131]

Absolutely. There's no way he finishes this in two books. Hell we've already seen like a dozen sample chapters from Winds of Winter and nothing about them suggested a speedy conclusion.

[u/CrispityCraspits → u/JackStephanovich]

There's no way he finishes it at all. He's 75. It has been 12 years since the last book and there is little sign it's coming out any time soon. He has said he has not written one page of the last book yet. There's basically zero chance he finishes the series.

At this point fans best bet is to convince him to let someone else finish it.

[u/Zolomun → u/lifeonbroadway]

I often find myself wondering why stories have gotten so big. I understand having lots of ideas, but isn’t there a point where self-editing becomes a necessary skill? Why is every movie marathon length now? Why is every idea a series instead of a single novel, and every series 10 volumes? (I’m clearly a hypocrite on this point, owning a complete Discworld set, and devouring Marvel Comics like junk food for 30+ years.) Is it all marketing and profit motives? Have our stories expanded for more artistic reasons? Have we culturally become more interested in longterm character development? Does GRRM really need another one to wrap this up when he’s so clearly struggling? Maybe, I dunno. Just interesting to think about. (I’m not high. You’re high. …ok, I’m high.)

[u/National-Yak-4772 → u/Zolomun]

Interesting you bring that up. The opposite is kinda happening in Japanese media. 20 years ago, a lot of manga would be written to be very longrunning series (see bleach, naruto, one piece, etc.) but if you look at the scope of manga today, most of it consists of shorter series. Shorter compared to the three I mentioned at least.

[u/Schmichael-22 → u/Zolomun]

I confronted this when I was browsing Netflix last weekend. I came across a documentary that looked interesting. Then I saw it was a 6-part series. I thought, “I don’t have time for this” and moved on.

[u/DueBest → u/lifeonbroadway]

I don't think this is how it will shake out, but theoretically, once he finishes Winds, it might untangle his storylines and pave the way for him to write through Dream of Spring more swiftly. Looking at works like Fire & Blood indicates that he can maintain a normal writing pace when not dealing with complexities.

Still, I doubt that will happen, and it seems like the only scenario where we might see a completed series. If Dream of Spring is even remotely complex to pull off, we won't see it ever completed.

[u/cnaughton898 → u/DueBest]

People said the exact same thing when Dance was taking so long, they reckoned it would be plain sailing once it got released.

[u/crapmonkey86 → u/cnaughton898]

That was me, I figured since Dance was finally the point where the Mereeneese Knot was resolved and everyone was where they were supposed to be after the initial time jump, Winds would come flying out. We are now more than double the amount of time between AFFC and ADWD...

[u/Elastichedgehog → u/lifeonbroadway]

Which dissuades me from ever reading the series, unfortunately.

[u/DrSaturn42]

At this point I honestly think the Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies will collide before George R.R. Martin finishes Winds of Winter

[u/curien → u/DrSaturn42]

"When the sun rises in the West and sets in the East. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return publish and not before."

[u/OrangeVoxel → u/DrSaturn42]

We already got a new song from the Beatles

[u/Everestkid → u/OrangeVoxel]

We got a new album from Tool and apparently they might be going back into the studio soon.

Fuck, we even got another Half-Life game.

[u/SpaceBoJangles → u/DrSaturn42]

If he passes away before finishing, you would be correct.

[u/retrovertigo23]

"I deleted them after I was done writing them, just like last year, but I did write them." - also George

[u/TurelSun → u/retrovertigo23]

You joke, but seriously that could happen. People that don't think very deeply about it will just equate page count to a progress meter and for a decent amount of the process that probably isn't untrue, but near the end its the least likely to be relevant. This is the point where the writer is having to thread everything together and is going back to refine things they've already done. That could actually mean culling lines, pages, or even whole chapters for a variety of reasons.

I said else where but many creative people know that the last 10% of a project is often the most time consuming.

[u/retrovertigo23 → u/TurelSun]

I must make light of reality or I will succumb to the abyss.

[u/FractalCurve]

Does anyone even care anymore? Winds of Winter, Doors of Stone...nothing is going to live up to literal decades of hype.

[u/Dislodged_Puma → u/FractalCurve]

Arguably, there is no hype anymore which could benefit GRRM. I am in the firm camp that there is literally 0% chance he finishes it, but with who dejected the entire franchise has become, him releasing anything would probably be seen in a positive light at this point lol

[u/lotlcs → u/Dislodged_Puma]

There doesn’t need to be hype because if he ever announces it, if it’s a month or 5 years from now or whatever, the hype is instantly back.

[u/SillyMattFace → u/lotlcs]

It’ll surely be a best seller, but it won’t be the cultural moment it would have been if it had dropped in say, 2015-16 when the series was at peak popularity.

A decade and change in waiting, and the show having a crappy ending, have definitely taken the wind out of its sails.

[u/Quiddity131 → u/SillyMattFace]

I've always said that GRRM's inability to get The Winds of Winter out when the show was at peak popularity around 2015 - 2017 or so has likely cost his publisher millions and millions of dollars.

Probably why we are seeing his publisher go after ancillary stuff like Fire & Blood, or Tyrion quote books or the like, to make up for the money they could have had if he wrote his books timely.

[u/Firm_Squish1 → u/Quiddity131]

Meh they would be doing that regardless, unless you think the publisher doesn’t like easy money.

[u/funktopus → u/Quiddity131]

A buddy of mine tried to get me to read the series before then and since then. I have not, as I don't think he's going to finish it. So your idea of the publisher losing money is true. If he only had one book left I would have bought the series.

I know several folks I worked with are VERY upset he's so slow at writing.

[u/Samuel_L_Johnson → u/Quiddity131]

Yeah likewise, I’ve said this before but I’d love to be a fly on the wall at Bantam whenever GRRM’s name comes up, the bartering/pleas/threats/hounding/cajoling that they must have tried with the guy probably makes anything the fans have tried pale into insignificance

[u/theflameleviathan → u/lotlcs]

this would never happen but the best thing for him would be to just drop it basically unannounced. any type of marketing will just lead to dissapointment

[u/Chad_Broski_2 → u/theflameleviathan]

If you put on your tinfoil hat and dive into some of the weirder theories here on Reddit...both books are already done and he's got them set to release as soon as he dies

It's total bullshit but it's a fun thought

[u/poplafuse → u/lotlcs]

They’ll start a reboot of the show just on the news the new book is coming. They’re sure this time they’ll have source material by the time they get that far. However, George will have 1,100 pages of the next book written and plan on adding one more to the series.

[u/wherethetacosat → u/Dislodged_Puma]

At this point I'd prefer he just give us a high level summary from here to the end of the story and like the 20 key chapters across the span that make it work. I'd buy it. I'm reluctant to spend $30 on Winds (if it does by some miracle happen) knowing that the final book (and any resolution) will never happen.

[u/hendrix67 → u/Dislodged_Puma]

The worst case scenario is he comes out with this one, it's great, but he dies before finishing the last. Would be the ultimate tease.

[u/thegypsyqueen → u/FractalCurve]

Yeah I was an avid fan who read 1-5 multiple times before the tv show and now I don’t care at all. Not even sure I’d pick it up if it did come out. Maybe if he released 6 and 7 at the same time but even then only if reviews were good. He’s wasted enough of my time.

[u/I_make_things → u/thegypsyqueen]

The last few seasons of the show utterly killed any interest I had in the books. Fuck all of that noise.

"Who has a better story than Bran the Broken?" ...are you FUCKING SERIOUS RIGHT NOW?

[u/idejmcd → u/FractalCurve]

More excited for HotD season 2

[u/butreallythobruh → u/idejmcd]

This is kinda where I'm at. I'm definitely interested in Winds, but until we have some semblance of an idea of when it's coming, it doesn't take up much space in my brain at all. HotD however, we know it's coming, we know more or less when to expect it, so it's easier to be excited for. Helps that it's a quality show, and is a story I'm not familiar with.

[u/nicklovin508 → u/FractalCurve]

I mean even if people don’t care, surely this book will sell tens of millions of copies instantly it (ever) gets released

[u/Protuhj → u/nicklovin508]

I'll buy it, but I wouldn't be devastated if it never comes out.

[u/big_flopping_anime_b]

At this point I don’t even care any more. Even if Winds does come out, A Dream of Spring is never seeing the light of day.

[u/reebee7 → u/big_flopping_anime_b]

It's really so upsetting. This just should be a magnum opus series, a generational achievement. And it won't be completed.

[u/hawkshaw1024 → u/reebee7]

I expect we'll eventually see the remaining books come out, but unfortunately the announcement will involve the words "posthumously," and "collected fragments," and "from the George RR Martin estate."

[u/bombadaka → u/hawkshaw1024]

Another author finished WoT when Jordan died. Probably be what happens here. Maybe just leave it as is though.

[u/QuickBenDelat → u/bombadaka]

Yea, but Jordan had a plan. He hadn’t written it all down, but he knew what happens and was productive until he died. GRRM doesn’t have a fucken clue. The only ending we are ever going to get happened on HBO.

[u/jonydevidson → u/QuickBenDelat]

He hadn’t written it all down

He did, that's why Sanderson was able to complete it. He didn't have a book or a draft, but notes.

[u/ilovecheeze → u/hawkshaw1024]

Yeah 100% this.

[u/rabid- → u/big_flopping_anime_b]

That's why it's a dream.

[u/storabollariminmun]

Every 2-3 months this thread appears, its always the same, the same headline, the same comments.

[u/DrowingInSemen]

We’ll have peace in the Middle East before this book is finished.

[u/[deleted] → u/DrowingInSemen]

And once it's released we'll go right back to war out of disappointment.

[u/remedy4cure]

Who would have thought that stuffing your story full of characters and narratives taking place over a land mass the size of Europe would be hard to end in a feasible way.

A lot easier to start than to finish, obviously.

[u/xajhx → u/remedy4cure]

I don’t think enough people realize that’s the issue.

The story got away from him. It was an ambitious undertaking that sadly, he just cannot finish.

[u/SillyMattFace → u/xajhx]

He also apparently has a very inefficient writing style. He’ll sit and write and write, and then throw most of it away or entirely rework it.

I don’t doubt that he’s been spending these years on the book, he’s just been going in circles messing with the same bits of text.

[u/brendanl1998 → u/SillyMattFace]

The problem is he doesn’t outline or plan at all. He calls himself a gardener and just sees how the story goes as he writes. Not saying he can totally change his style but he could try to have some broader plans before writing In depth m. I remember he said he wrote Quentyn Martell’s journey to Meereen 4 times because he couldn’t visualize the plots without writing the whole thing out. And the Winds of Winter is probably more complicated

[u/McFeely_Smackup → u/SillyMattFace]

he was on record saying he was making good progress, but then COVID lockdown happened and derailed him

Literally said that thing that made everyone stay at home for 2 years made him stop writing.

[u/ControlAgent13 → u/McFeely_Smackup]

Yes...but he works from home so you'd think it would be the opposite.

But writers suffer writers block for all kinds of reasons. I remember reading JRR Tolkien complain the he would sit at his writing table for hours - and play solitaire.

[u/McFeely_Smackup → u/ControlAgent13]

the alternative is the Stephen King types who schedule writing time and force themselves to write whether they have anything to say or not. a LOT of King's writing reads like he's fulfilling a word count obligation.

[u/SillyMattFace → u/McFeely_Smackup]

Agreed prolific writers like King and Sanderson tend to have a lot of filler.

On the other hand I’d say every single one of the 15+ books King has written in the last 12 years is far superior to Winds of Winter, in that they actually exist.

[u/ifcknhateme → u/SillyMattFace]

damn that was savage

[u/DueBest → u/McFeely_Smackup]

In his defense, a ton of people saw their mental health plummet during the pandemic.

[u/Super_Nerd92 → u/xajhx]

And was always going to if you listen to how he describes his writing process. There is a lot to be said for outlining and cutting and editing your story lol, not letting it just get bigger and bigger in scope until it's out of control.

[u/Nibedit]

I think winds will come out eventually. A dream if spring is a guarantee no.

[u/zubbs99 → u/Nibedit]

Yep I think you're right. He's got enough there for someone to finish this one for him even if he doesn't. But the finale will only live in our collective imagination.

[u/A_Mirabeau_702]

"Art is not a democracy. You don't get to vote on how it ends." - George

How George ends it: nothin

[u/hqrpie]

Let's be real. The guy is a 75 year-old multimillionaire. If I were him, spending hours upon hours in my office writing a book would be at the very bottom of my to do list. Below, for example, traveling around the world, eating in the best restaurants, etc. I have given up hope long ago.

[u/Kalrhin → u/hqrpie]

That is perfectly fine. What some of us complain is that in the last 20 years he has said over and over that finishing the novel is his top priority. He cannot complain about people wanting to keep him accountable of his own words

[u/hqrpie → u/Kalrhin]

You are right about this. I can only imagine the pressure. Giving up officially would probably relieve him and us.

[u/gsauce8 → u/Kalrhin]

Also he's involved in like 8 different HBO products in the same universe. I used to think the fanbase was too hard on the guy, but I'm sorry George, I can't defend you when you're milking a Duncan and Egg series instead of writing the damn book.

[u/twbrn → u/hqrpie]

Below, for example, traveling around the world, eating in the best restaurants, etc

That's pretty much exactly what he's been doing for the last ten years.

[u/Half_Crocodile → u/hqrpie]

Guide a ghost writer and heavily edit? Idk…

[u/knowledgebass → u/hqrpie]

Stephen King has been filthy rich for decades and could have quit writing years ago, yet he still churns out books. Hell, he finished the Dark Tower series shortly after being injured in a bad accident. It's about GRRM's work ethic and lack of discipline. The show finishing the story before the books also probably took a lot of the wind out of his sails.

[u/therobshow → u/hqrpie]

You could've stopped at 75 years old. Mental decline and physical health decline are a legitimate thing at that age. Even if he lived long enough to finish the series, it wouldn't be as good as the the rest of it because of the mental decline he's either already experiencing or will be soon. The series is never being finished.

[u/fantomen777]

I wish that George R.R. Martin was honest and did tell the truth, after I did get rich and famous, I lost the motivation to complet the work, and I have more important things to do.

[u/sharkfxce → u/fantomen777]

yeah just come out and say it, he got rich and famous and his story was already told to completion and nobody liked the ending, he probably wants to change the ending for the books and has no idea how and now no motivation to finish

[u/Grammaton485 → u/fantomen777]

At this point, I honestly don't care about the book, I'm just sick of the constant dripping and promises that it's being worked on and getting done.

[u/dangleicious13]

Just admit that you're tired of it and you have no interest in finishing.

[u/MrFrostyBudds]

Jesus Christ this isn't even the last book I've given up on it. The first 3 books will share a quiet secluded place in my brain for the rest of my life and the rest be damned.

[u/erudit0rum]

This is why I’m not even gonna start the series. I’m not getting blue balled.

[u/lovablydumb → u/erudit0rum]

Don't read anything by Patrick Rothfuss either.

[u/SensualOilyDischarge → u/lovablydumb]

After Robert Jordan died I swore I would never read an unfinished series again and it seems to be working out. Picked up the first Rothfuss book, realized it was a “trilogy” and promptly gave that bitch to Half Price Books and forgot about it.

Years later, seeing fans wail and gnash their teeth about him blogging about lawn care and not finishing the series, I felt like I’d made a good choice.

[u/lovablydumb → u/SensualOilyDischarge]

I don't avoid all unfinished series. Brandon Sanderson's output is very consistent. I don't worry about whether his next book is coming or not. But there's a point where it gets ridiculous. Martin and Rothfuss have long since passed that point.

[u/Tank_Top_Terror → u/lovablydumb]

Isn't he the one that like sold a chapter for charity them never released it? Cut from the same cloth lol

[u/0x44554445 → u/erudit0rum]

I just can't imagine the frustration of someone that started reading the series in 1996. 27 years is a long ass time to go with no conclusion.

[u/heysuphey → u/0x44554445]

Yeah it sucks. At least I got my hardcovers of the first three out of it.

[u/Shas_Erra]

I still think that he gave the broad plot points to the tv show producers to make sure everything lined up. Given the poor reception of the last season, that version of the manuscript has been shredded and he’s now panicking with no way to finish the series

[u/thekinkyhairbookworm → u/Shas_Erra]

This has been my theory as well. Imagine the backlash to wait all this time to get the show ending, which people absolutely hated

[u/khendron]

Obligatory (can't believe this was 8 years ago)

[u/ajm53092]

I don’t even remember what happened in the books at this point.

[u/Precisely2thepoint]

Can we stop with the stories about how this turd hasn't finished what he was supposed to years ago. If he had a regular job he would have been fired and not rehired in that industry.

[u/hotstepper77777]

Still pretending to be working in Winds in order to trick me into giving a shit about his other projects.

Get bent, fat man.

[u/Sometimes_Stutters]

At least he’s consistent

[u/AdamBlackfyre]

I read A Dance of Dragons 12 years ago George!

[u/samjjones]

Hope he starts the second chapter soon.

[u/Cosmic_War_Crocodile]

Who would have known?

[u/TalnOnBraize → u/Cosmic_War_Crocodile]

If I woke up tomorrow with my head sewn to the carpet, I wouldn't be more surprised than I am right now.

[u/BadassSasquatch → u/TalnOnBraize]

Save the neck for me, Clark.

[u/Taman_Should]

One step forward, two steps back. For every page he writes, he throws a few in the trash.